Uprising 2012 Rule set

Uprising će ove godine biti u februaru ili najkasnije početkom marta zajedno sa salonom knjiga na sajmu. Ono što mi treba da odlučimo i objavimo su pravila.

Ja sam mislio ETC ali neznam kako će biti sa novim armijama (izlaze novi vampiri).

Slušam mudre predloge? Ako nekim čudom bude više učesnika ja bi hteo da zamolim Andriju da sudi pošto je najpotkovaniji.

Ja bih samo skromno ukazao na činjenicu da godina koja nam predstoji će biti 2012. po redu po Hrišćanskom računanju...

Ja sam za ETC. Prilicno sam siguran da svi u KG dele moje misljenje.

Stranac wrote:Ja bih samo skromno ukazao na činjenicu da godina koja nam predstoji će biti 2012. po redu po Hrišćanskom računanju...

Ne moz ziveti od ovih botova...

Treba mi pomoć oko pravila za Ogre i Vampire. Pogledajte bodovanja i komentarišite.


Rules changes:
- Characters will get "look out sir" versus the following spells that automatically kill models or automatically remove an entire regiment: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th, Infernal Gateway 11-12 effect. Normal requirements for lookout sir apply.
- Dark Elf Sorceresses cannot cast spells using more dice than normal wizards .

I. General Restrictions:

2400 Points.
No Special or Named Characters.
Army used can be any of the currently published GW Army books.
A maximum of 3 identical core choices may be taken (regardless of equipment and other upgrades)
An army may have up to 5 war machines and template weapons. Warmachines that use a template count as a single choice in this regard. All template weapons (from magic items, abilities, etc.) count, except for spells.
Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).

Unit sizes are limited as follows:
Units cannot be more than 40 models nor 450 points (including all command, upgrades, magic items/banners). This restriction applies during the creation of the roster - unit size/cost may be increased during the game (for example - by joining characters to the unit). This restriction does not apply to characters.

Magic Restrictions:
- Apart from Winds of magic and Channeling, an army may only generate 2 PD/DD per magic phase.
- You may have units/abilities that actually would generate more than 2 extra dice, but any excess dice are lost
- Some magic items/abilities count as generating dice toward this limit.
- “Count as” items/abilities may never exceed a cumulative 2 PD/DD per phase. This means that if you take the Book of Hoeth, you may not take any other items that “count as adding PD/DD”
- All modifiers are applied from the army list and will not change during the game.

Detailed description
Apart from winds of magic and through the channeling rule, an army may only ever add 2 dice to its power or dispel pool in each magic phase. Any dice added to the pool, regardless of source (generated, stolen, stored from previous magic phases, generated by magic items/abilities to boost spellcasting before or after the casting attempt, produced by spells, lore abilities, and so on) count. Excess dice are simply discarded and cannot be used in any way (i.e. - they can’t be stored).

If a dice is stolen from the opponent’s pool, but your army has already generated two extra dice, the dice is removed from the opponent’s pool and then discarded.

Some special items and abilities DECREASE the limit of power or dispel dice you can add to the pool. We refer to those as “count as” items. What this means is that, if your roster includes one “counts as 1 Power Dice (PD)” item, your army can only add 1 power dice (instead of the usual 2 dice) to the pool in each of your own magic phases of the entire game (regardless of whether the item is destroyed or used up).
Please note that you cannot have a combination of items that would decrease the limit of extra power or dispel dice to below zero.

Item restrictions:
- Power Scroll is banned
- Each Loremaster ability counts as generating 1 PD each magic phase
- Any item that auto-dispels a spell counts as generating 1 DD each magic phase.
- Folding Fortress is not allowed

Army Specific Restrictions:
Beastmen: Beastmen armies have an extra 200 points for their roster (2600 total). All victory points scored against this army are decreased by 10% (excluding bonus points for banners, general, etc.).
Bretts: No Restrictions
Dark Elves: Hydra is a 0-1 choice. Max. 35 repeater Crossbows in the army (regardless of who carries them). Repeater Bolt Throwers 0-2. Flying units (inc. characters on flying steeds) in the army limited to 0-3. Shades max 20 models per army. Dreadlord on pegasus cannot take Crown of Command.
Dwarves: Each spellbreaker/spelleater rune counts as +1 DD. Grudge Throwers are a 0-2 choice; May generate Max. +4 dispel dice instead of +2
DOC: Max. 28 Models per unit; Flamers are a 0-1 choice. All daemonic gifts are 0-1. Bloodletters and Herald of Khorne are 0-3 total. Daemonic Battle Standard can take either daemonic icon or gifts.
Empire: Steam Tank counts as a war machine; Tank, Rocket battery and Engineers are 0-1 choices
High Elves: Max. 500 points or 40 models per unit; Vortex Shard counts as +1DD; Book of Hoeth counts as 2PD and 2 DD; Banner of the World Dragon counts as +1 DD
Lizardmen: Salamanders are a 0-1 Choice ; Terradons and Stegadons (any kind) are 0-2 choices; Beclaming Cogitations counts as +2DD; Cupped hands counts as +2PD
O&G: Night Goblin Shamans are 0-3 (max 3 of any kind of NG shaman); mushroom dice do not count as power dice in regard to the PD limit.
Skaven: All Skaven rare choices 0-1; Gutter runners are a 0-2 choice; Engineers are a 0-3 choice;
TK: Neferra's Scrolls of Mighty Incantations counts as 2 PD AND 2 DD. Hierotitan is worth 1 PD so long as it's alive. Sphinxes of all kinds: 0-3 per army
WE: Wand of Wych Elm counts as +1 DD
Warriors of Chaos: Hellcannon is a 0-1 choice. Infernal Puppet counts as +1 PD and +2DD; Tendrils of Tzeench and Conjoined Homunculus both counts as +1 PD. Favour of the Gods cannot be taken by a Champion of a Chosen of Tzeentch unit

Vampires:???
Ogres: ????


III. Scoring

Victory points scored as per the rulebook, with the exceptions that:
- units that are at 25% or less of their original models yield 50% VP's to the opponent (characters, monsters and handlers, war machines and single models are unaffected).
-units that are fleeing at the end of the battle yield 50% VP's to the opponent.

In both cases, bonuses (for generals, banners, etc.) are not counted towards the 50%. Units that are both: fleeing and at/below ¼ strength still only yiled 50% VP’s.


Victory points to Battle points per game:

0-300 Victory-Points difference – Draw - 1battle point to both players
More then 300 points difference is a victory and victorious player gets 2 battle points and the one that lost get 0 battle points
If a victorious player scores more then double VP then his opponent then it counts as a massacre and he gets 3 battle pts.
If any player manages to fulfill a special mission he gets additional battle point.

Power scroll je eratiran pa nema vise potrebe da se zabranjuje. Treba odrediti pravila za liniju vida (moj predlog je isti onaj za koji sam predlozio da se glasa na etc forumu). Za ogrove bi predlozio da se stavi da se hellheart racuna kao +1PD i +2DD mislim da je to dovoljno ali nemam knjigu pri rucida bi bio siguran.

Da odkad je power scroll eratiran ne pravi problem, a i nisam siguran da beastmeni treba da dobiju 200 doatnih poena, i zar bretonija nije imala ograničenje na jedan trebuche? A za vampire prvo moramo da vidimo knjigu, dok posle pratije sa Maxom i ogrevima, zaključujem da onaj pogani item koji opali miscast svakom neprijateljskom wizardu u milion inča je jako gadan i verujem da treba da zauzima sve DD i PP ili neku kombinaciju od ta dva.

Nije da mi je bitno, posto se vise ne igram warhammer (samo kolekcionarski i farbacki deo hobija), ali...

zar bretonija nije imala ograničenje na jedan trebuche?

U blizu 20 godina igranja, ja do sada nisam video ni jedan, a kamoli dva+ trebusea na tabli... zivo me interesuje koji bi to kralj u konjicku armiju (armor), koja je kod protivnika u 2. krugu (dakle 1 krug pucanja), stavio gomilu trebusea (no armor save ako se pogresno scatteruje...) sa grand idejom da njima "maltretira protivnika"

http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard&func=view&catid=14&id=103992&Itemid=87

Ali poenta je da moze da ipak, tako da je ETC ograničenje ok, ali za vampire i ogre stvarno ne znam Vlado, moramo da nadjemo prvo pdf vampirske knjige da da testiramo a ja se prjavljujem da igram protiv maxe ili bar nekog paper hamera sa ogerima.

Samo reci kad

Slos wrote:http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard&func=view&catid=14&id=103992&Itemid=87

Ali poenta je da moze da ipak, tako da je ETC ograničenje ok, ali za vampire i ogre stvarno ne znam Vlado, moramo da nadjemo prvo pdf vampirske knjige da da testiramo a ja se prjavljujem da igram protiv maxe ili bar nekog paper hamera sa ogerima.

Cekaj, to je ona dominatorska lista sa kojom ste postigli izuzetne uspehe? A vidim i ostali bretonci su imali isto sjajne rezultate (sa izuzetkom poljaka, cini mi se da niko drugi nije bio u top 10).

Kao sto rekoh - nije da mi je bitno, ali mi je toliko smesno limitirati bretonca koji zeli da vas dominira.... trebuseima ... da nemam reci

Dzon Vejn u najboljem izdanju.

Trebuse je prilicno jeftina masina, jaca od "obicnog" katapulta i ume da prilicno ojadi blokove pesadije i pripremi ih za jurise autobusa. Poen za poen daleko vise vredi od recimo seljaka, a dva trebusea ucine vise od ekvivalenta u poenima drugih Rare jedinica. Nisu, ali stvarno, los izbor u osmoj ediciji.

To sto je darko rekao + ETC metagame je malo drugaciji od ovog redovnog turnirskog, pa tu ljudi ne prave "allcomer" liste vec namenske

Ne vredi... predajem se... u potpunosti prihvatam da ima razlicitih misljenja, od kojih neka, recimo, mogu biti: da su bretonci sa 2 trebusea dominatori megaubice iz dimenzije X

Dzon Vejn u najboljem izdanju.

Pomenuti bi sada usao u detaljnu diskusiju, sa sve excel tabelama i matematickom statistikom, ali mu to Nenad Nikolic ne dozvoljava

Slos wrote:Da odkad je power scroll eratiran ne pravi problem, a i nisam siguran da beastmeni treba da dobiju 200 doatnih poena, i zar bretonija nije imala ograničenje na jedan trebuche? A za vampire prvo moramo da vidimo knjigu, dok posle pratije sa Maxom i ogrevima, zaključujem da onaj pogani item koji opali miscast svakom neprijateljskom wizardu u milion inča je jako gadan i verujem da treba da zauzima sve DD i PP ili neku kombinaciju od ta dva.

Bretonija po ETC nema ograničenje na 1 treb. to je bilo po Agramovom AR

Novi vampiri se mogu skinuti sa demonoida.

Izasla su vam i nova ETC pravila, iteracija 0:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=86186

kgkid wrote:Izasla su vam i nova ETC pravila, iteracija 0:
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=86186

Jesu, ali to je link za proslogodisnja
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=97873

Rules changes:
- Characters will get "look out sir" versus the following spells that automatically kill models or automatically remove an entire regiment: Dwellers Below, Final Transmutation, Dreaded 13th, Infernal Gateway 11-12 effect. Normal requirements for lookout sir apply.

I. General Restrictions:

2400 Points.
No Special or Named Characters.
Army used can be any of the currently published GW Army books. Forge World based army lists & units may not be used on the event
A maximum of 3 identical core choices may be taken (regardless of equipment and other upgrades)
An army may have up to 5 war machines and template weapons. Warmachines that use a template count as a single choice in this regard. All template weapons (from magic items, abilities, etc.) count, except for spells.
Max. 45 models with missile weapons with a range of 20”+ (not incl. war machines, characters and chariots).

Unit sizes are limited as follows:
Units cannot be more than 40 models nor 450 points (including all command, upgrades, magic items/banners). This restriction applies during the creation of the roster - unit size/cost may be increased during the game (for example - by joining characters to the unit). This restriction does not apply to characters.

Magic Restrictions:
- Apart from Winds of magic, an army may only generate 2 PD/DD per magic phase. Including channeled PD/DD.
- Player can use maximum 5 PD to cast spell (+ wizard level).
- An army may use up to 12 PD during each phase.
- You may have units/abilities that actually would generate more than 2 extra dice, but any excess dice are lost
- Some magic items/abilities count as generating dice toward this limit.
- “Count as” items/abilities may never exceed a cumulative 2 PD/DD per phase. This means that player who already spent his limit PD limit, cant take more items which “count as adding PD” or add PD from channeling during game (same for DD).
- All modifiers are applied from the army list and will not change during the game.

Detailed description
Apart from winds of magic, an army may only ever add 2 dice to its power or dispel pool in each magic phase (unless army restrictions specify otherwise). Any dice added to the pool, regardless of source (generated, stolen, stored from previous magic phases, generated by magic items/abilities to boost spellcasting before or after the casting attempt, produced by spells, lore abilities, and so on) count. Excess dice are simply discarded and cannot be used in any way (i.e. - they can’t be stored).

If a dice is stolen from the opponent’s pool, but your army has already generated two extra dice, the dice is removed from the opponent’s pool and then discarded.

Some special items and abilities DECREASE the limit of power or dispel dice you can add to the pool. We refer to those as “count as” items. What this means is that, if your roster includes one “counts as 1 Power Dice (PD)” item, your army can only add 1 power dice (instead of the usual 2 dice) to the pool in each of your own magic phases of the entire game (regardless of whether the item is destroyed or used up).
Please note that you cannot have a combination of items that would decrease the limit of extra power or dispel dice to below zero.

Item restrictions:
- Any item that auto-dispels a spell counts as generating 1 DD each magic phase.
- Folding Fortress is not allowed

Army Specific Restrictions:
Beastmen: Beastmen armies have an extra 200 points for their roster (2600 total), All victory points scored against this army are decreased by 10% (excluding bonus points for banners, general, etc.), Beastmen can generate 3 extra pd instead of 2
Bretonnia: No Restrictions
Dark Elves: Hydra is a 0-1 choice. Max. 35 repeater Crossbows (including characters and excluding chariots) in the army. Repeater Bolt Throwers 0-2. Flying units (inc. characters on flying steeds) in the army limited to 0-3. Shades max 20 models per army, Pendant of khaeleth cannot be taken by lord characters, player may take up to 2 of following: Pendant of khaeleth\Crown of command\any number of wizards using death & shadow magic\Cauldron of Blood\Hydra.
Dwarfs: Each spellbreaker/spelleater rune counts as +1 DD. Grudge Throwers are a 0-2 choice; May generate Max. +4 dispel dice instead of +2; 0-3 of anvil, miners & rangers (in any combination of them)
Daemons of Chaos: Max. 28 Models per unit; Flamers are a 0-1 choice. All daemonic gifts are 0-1. Bloodletters and Herald of Khorne are 0-3 total. Daemonic Battle Standard can take either daemonic icon or gifts. Siren song cannot be taken by Herald of Slaanesh. Master of sorcery cannot be taken by Herald of Tzeentch.
The Empire: Steam Tank counts as a war machine; Tank, Rocket battery and Engineers are a 0-1 choice
High Elves: High Elves armies have an extra 100 points for their roster (2500 total); High elves army can generate extra 3 powerdice instead of 2; Vortex Shard counts as +1DD; Book of Hoeth counts as 2PD and 2 DD; Banner of the World Dragon counts as +1 DD
Lizardmen: Salamanders are a 0-1 Choice;Scar-Veterans 0-2, Terradons and Stegadons (any kind) are 0-2 choices; player may take up to 2 of following: Beclaming Cogitations\ Focus of Mystery\ Focused Rumination \Higher State of Consciusness; Beclaming Cogitations counts as +2DD; Cupped hands of the Old Ones counts as +2PD; Higher State of Consciusness counts as 2 discplines (takes two slots, but cost same points); Crown of Command & Higher State of Consciousness cannot be taken on 1 model; A maximum total of 6 Skink, Chameleon skinks and Skink Cohorts units combined maybe taken in an army (Cohorts containing kroxigor or numbering above 20 models do not count for this restriction).
Ogre Kingdoms: Hellheart counts as 2dd & 1pd, greedyfist on death magic user counts as 1dd
Orcs&Goblins: Night Goblin Shamans are 0-3 (max 3 of any kind of NG shaman); mushroom dice do not count as power dice in regard to the PD limit. Maximum model cap is removed for this army
Skaven: All Skaven rare choices 0-1; Gutter runners are limited by 2 units & 20 models total; Engineers are a 0-3 choice; Can take max 2 of the following: doom rocket, brass orb, storm banner;
Vampire Counts:To be revised in the following drafts.
Tomb Kings: Tomb King armies have an extra 200 points for their roster (2600 total), All victory points scored against this army are decreased by 10% (excluding bonus points for banners, general, etc.), Neferra's Scrolls of Mighty Incantations counts as 2 PD AND 2 DD. Hierotitan is worth 1 PD so long as it's alive. Sphinxes of all kinds: 0-3 per army. Tomb Kings may generate up to 3 power dice per phase
Wood Elves: Wood Elf armies have an extra 200 points for their roster (2600 total) All victory points scored against this army are decreased by 10% (excluding bonus points for banners, general, etc.), Wood Elves can take 4 of the same core unit instead of 3, Wand of Wych Elm counts as +1 DD; Only Glade guards (including scouts) count for max of 45 models with shooting weapons
Warriors of Chaos: Hellcannon is a 0-1 choice. Infernal Puppet counts as +1 PD and +2DD; Tendrils of Tzeench and Conjoined Homunculus both counts as +1 PD.

II. Scoring

Victory points scored as per the rulebook, with the exceptions that:
- units that are at 25% or less of their original models yield 50% VP's to the opponent (characters, monsters and handlers, war machines and single models are unaffected).
-units that are fleeing at the end of the battle yield 50% VP's to the opponent.

In both cases, bonuses (for generals, banners, etc.) are not counted towards the 50%. Units that are both: fleeing and at/below ¼ strength still only yiled 50% VP’s.

Ako stavimo da se dobija 10 ili 30 poena onda bi struktura bila sledeća:

0-150 poena na partije ili čak 0-200 ako specijalne misije donose 10. No možemo ostaviti da specijalne misiji i dalje budu 1‚poen pa će samo donositi prestiž ako su jednaki.
0-20 za farbanje

Da li ocenjujemo sportsmanšip ? Kao prošle godine ? Bilo je da trebaju tri negtivne ocene da dobiješ -5 poena a ako imaš 5 negativnih onda dobiješ -10. ako su svi pozitivni onda ništa.

Da li da ostavljamo one dodatne discipline ili da batalimo ?
Ili da ostavimo da se one boduju samo za timove ?

A sto da stavljamo sve to? Moze da bude po ETC-u scoring, kao u knjizi sto je, samo sa tim malim bonusima.

Poeni>
Meni se svidjalo kako je bilo do sada, sa poenima koji variraju od nule do 20 sa korakom 1, mislim da je ta fudblaska poentaza pomalo bez šlifa... Iskustva sa BG turnira samo produbljuju ovo moje uverenje.

Scenariji>
Takodje, scenariji bi trebalo da se igraju svi, sa izuzetkom Blood and Glory (zbog elementa "Sve ili Nista", koji ide samo sa fudbalskim ocenjivanjem) i mozda Watchtower. Watchtower (koji moze da bude i obicna kuca, sto se tice terena i pravila) mozda moze i da se modifikuje, tako da drzanje na kraju donosi neki bonus u poenima, a ne automatsku pobedu. Ne izbacujte Battle for the Pass, please.

Magija>
Dao bih nekoliko sitnih sugestija:
- Italijanski predlog za restrikciju PD istestirati (max. 4 kockice za kastovanje). Uz ODLICNE argumente "Za" koje su dali sami Italijani, ja bih naveo jos jedan: iako ce bacanje magija biti teze,bice vise bacanja po krugu. Naveo bih i potencijalne argumente "Protiv": Igraci koji se oslanjaju na magije ce da se bune (iako ce L4 jake magije i dalje bacati prosecnom rukom, ali ce biti teze za bacanje); Book of Hoeth bice jos bitnija; svakom ce i dalje, ako ne i vise, trebati L4 mag u armiji. Ipak, mislim da je sve ovo vredno testiranja, posto bez tog limita sve sto cemo videti bice Lore of Shadow i Lore of Life.
- Razmotriti i mozda testirati da MR radi protiv svih spelova koji nanose rane (cak i onih koje kazu No Saves of any kind, u kom slucaju bi se koristio samo MR, a ne i "normalni" Ward). Ovime bi se postigle dve stvari: ublazavanje efekata "Ultimate death and doom spell" i ljudi bi nasli primenu za MR koji je trenutno vrlo retka stvar.

Ostaje da kazem jos sta mislim o armijama pojedinacno, ali kasnim na sljaku, pa cu da to dodam malo kasnije...

EDIT:
Ostadoh kod kuce da se igram sa klincem, ali posto on trenutno kulira ćaleta, eto mene da krenem sa rasama:

Rase>
- HE: Čemu +100 poena i +1 PD, ako im je već dozvoljeno da nose Book of Hoeth? Zato što neće moći da uzmu knjigu i Banner of Sorcery? Kako rekoh na FB diskusiji, ako Book of Hoeth nije zabranjena, a nisam za zabranu, ne vidim razlog za +100 poena. Ako neko misli da oni imaju skupe trupe, zašto Patuljci ne bi imali +100 poena. Mislim da oni nemaju realnu osnovu za takvo što. Sa druge strane ne mislim da Book of Hoeth treba da se računa u DD, te da im treba dati fore i za kontriranje magija.

- TK: Nisam siguran da se oni kvalifikuju za +200 poena svojom novm knjigom. Generalno se smatra da su nove knjige, izašle posle osme edicije, prilično međusobno balansirane.

- VC: Mislim da ne treba biti veliki genije pa da se vide potencijalne zloupotrebe, pre svega eteral spam, seljačka svadba (spam vrištanja) i spam onom novom konjicom. Pored standardnih, očigledno je da bi trebalo uvesti da je eteral laka konjica 0-1 (možda 0-2), odokativno još i eterali 0-3 (pitanje je da li karaktere uključiti u ovo, ili ne), kočija 0-1 i 0-3 vrištanja, ma kojeg izvora. Postavlja se i pitanje limitiranja monstruma, ali nisam siguran da li za tim ima potrebe. Sigurno je da im nikakvi bonusi u poenima, ili kockicama, nisu potrebni.

- WE: Nisam siguran da je njih moguće popraviti, ali generalne smernice nisu loše. Možda im dodati i da im Ward save nije debilan, nego onaj običan?

- OK: Treba dodati i ono da magovi ne mogu da nose magične oklope, sem rukavice, ako postoji. To je pokriveno njihovim FAQ ali nije strogo i neki vole da to zloupotrebljavaju.

Ja sam za "fudbalski" sistem bodovanja, a da specijalne misije donose 1 pojen. Sportmensip je valjan kakav je bio.

Moj problem sa fudbalom je štoonda moram da menjam i kompletan sistem bodovanja sve ga ostalog ali nije ni to kraj sveta. Molio bi i ostale da glasaju.

Za sada darko i šlos : etc, Andrija fudbal.

Ostali ?

podrzavam Andriju, nekako mi se vise svidja, a i ovaj ETC sistem stalno koristimo